My Vulgate Latin group has been translating Paul’s Letter to the Romans. We’ve gotten to Chapter 3, and verse 8 speaks to the current dispute about the lawfulness and the utility of such activities as waterboarding by the CIA. Former Vice President Cheney has called on President Obama to release some of the documents that list the useful intelligence gained through waterboarding and other physical impairments applied to prisoners. Cheney says it saved lives.
Verse 8 says: And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say): “Let us do evil so that good may come?” Their condemnation is deserved!
I’m not normally much of a fan of Paul (his opinions on women, people who had ritual sex in temples, and the headship of men in the family are not my cup of tea). However, I’ve been saying this all along. When one does an evil act in order to promote a greater good, the act is still evil in and of itself. The end never ever justifies the means. The former Vice President seems not to have paid attention when this verse is read in church.
It is reminiscent of the old joke about Calvin Coolidge. A young socialite was sitting next to President Coolidge at a banquet, and the talk turned to the profession of prostitution. Coolidge asked her, “Would you embrace the profession of prostitution for a fee of $1000?” “Of course not!” replied the young lady. Coolidge proposed higher and higher fees, all payable to the lady’s favourite charity. She refused them all, until Coolidge proposed a fee of $1 million. She paused, thought of the widows and orphans that money would help, and said that, yes, she would spend the night with a man who gave $1 million to her favourite charity. Coolidge said, “Well, then, would you do it for $20?” The lady, horrified, said: “No, of course not! What do you think I am?” Coolidge replied immediately: “We’ve already established that; now we’re only haggling over the price.”
Ive heard that joke/story before and its still good all these years later.
Yeah, two wrongs don’t make a right.
and sadly, the ex VP truly believes that a wrong for good balances out. I think you get that when hatred and power and “victory” take place of common sense and compassion. That is why I feel the economy and such are in such bad times now. People want to put winning and what they can get for themselves ahead of helping and doing whats right. A bank wouldn’t give a man a loan for 500k knowing he can only realistically pay back one for 125k, unless they planned on screwing him later. Politicians who really cared about the people they are elected by wouldn’t mud sling and make things up they would really fight for the issues. Drug companies wouldn’t charge you so much for diabetes medicine that makes you feel better and stay healthy unless they know you will pay whatever you can to feel right. I may have on my rose tinted glasses but when your belief in any means necessary over shadow common decency then the trouble starts.
I’ve never liked that story. It’s insulting to prostitutes.
Thanks for contributing that. Being here and getting all my medications for free (diabetics get all medications for free) helps me to forget that in other countries people are not so lucky and sometimes feeling well depends on your financial status.
I hope that you will get good affordable medical care for all in the U.S.
The point is not whether these methods worked or not. The point is that torturing people is not moral, period.
It is clear that Pakistan and Pakistanis often constitute a threat to our safety. Does that mean that deporting all Pakistanis and people of Pakistani origin (whether British citizens or not) would be moral if it lessened that threat? Should we just bomb Pakistan into the Stone Age? Perhaps if we tortured them all we’d find out about all the plots currently in play and foil them.
It puts me in mind of the neutron bomb: that weapon which would produce enough radiation to kill all life in an area while preserving the property and buildings. Was it possible? Would it save lives? Probably. Was it moral? No.
The way to safeguard our society is to act morally towards all people, our own as well as others. Ideas robustly debated and defended in the public area are more powerful than the most powerful nuclear weapon in this fight.
Proving that torture works does nothing but expose us as moral monsters willing to do anything, however evil, to protect ourselves. Franklin may have said, “People who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.”