A response to fj’s comment on my previous post

fj said, in part:

Furthermore, this raising fees goes hand in hand with killing the block grant to universities, basically making them dependent only on tuition fees, strongly commercializing education as a product. It will kill less popular and artistic studies that do not have that return in the marketplace on money invested by the student, thus destroying that knowledge.

I don’t believe that the number of arts and humanities students in the United States has been lessened by the “commercialisation” of university education.

British universities need to take their heads out of the Middle Ages and start raising their own funds and endowments. For too many years they have been dependent on the state for all funding. This has made them into tools of whichever government is in power, and has made students totally dependent upon the government to fund their educations. This removes incentive, and prepares students for a life of indolence (if that’s what they want). It also means that alumni/ae are disinclined to contribute to their almae matres studiorum. The government has faced up to this, and assuming that they can fend off the students who believe that the world owes them a living and an education, this action will be a success.

What does need to be done is this:

First, establish a set of state universities which are subsidised to a greater or lesser extent by the government. Tuition fees would still be charged, but at a somewhat lower rate than at the redbrick establishments.

Second, set the well-established older foundations free to charge what the market will bear, subject to large scholarships for those who cannot afford to pay full tuition but who would benefit from the educational experience that these institutions can provide. These universities must step up their fundraising apparatuses to a professional level (note that the Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge was the Provost of Yale—this is already happening in certain places) and set aside funds for scholarships. The government support for tuition (as opposed to support for research and development) should be tapered off and consist of loan guarantees by the end of the process.

Third, the government should make contributions to tertiary educational institutions tax-exempt, on the American model. What fat cat wouldn’t like a building at their university named after them? It works in America, and if the government would get its head out of its arse and recognise that the structure of charitable giving needs to be overhauled, it would work here too.

By the way, it is a general problem with charity giving here in the United Kingdom that people give money to animals and diseases, but not to anything else. The Church of England would be self-sufficient if the people in the pews actually believed what is the honest truth: the government does NOT contribute a farthing to the Church by law Established. It the universities could more easily tap into the fat cat funding stream, and divert some of the moggy-money to education, there would be no problem funding tertiary institutions.

The largest number of universities in all the ranking lists of world universities are in the United States. There’s a reason for this. Oxford and Cambridge are there mainly because of their antiquity, and because they have tapped the government for lots of research funding.

I have to disagree with you, fj, as much as it pains me to do so. The European model of state-funded tertiary education can no longer compete, even on its own territory. Changing it gradually to a student and alumnni/ae funded model, with government grants a distant third, is the only way to ensure that all those who want an education can get it.

And, by the way, I think that too many people end up going to university now in any case. Degree-inflation has made it impossible to get a good honest job without GCSEs or A-levels, and most employers now look favourably only on degree-holders. This is rubbish. We need to ensure that education in the United Kingdom is tailored to the wants and needs of the student, and the wants and needs of the labour market. As a Latin and Greek major, I was woefully underprepared for the labour market, and I have never actually taught the Classics. However, it did fit me for software testing and test management, and I’m glad I took it.

And as for debt? I had a lot of debt vis-à-vis my income, and I was terrified. But even on the meagre salary I got working at Columbia preparing transcripts for posting, I managed to pay it off. The conditions under which the student of England will be paying off his or her debt would have been awesome to me. I don’t believe that I would have started paying off my 1970-74 debt until the early 1990’s, which is when I started to make the equivalent of £21,000. Some students will never pay off their debts, legally, and the remainder of whatever they owe will be written off 35 years after graduation. I would have KILLED to have had debt with conditions that lenient.

I would have loved to have gotten a free education, or to have graduated with no debt. However, I was a gifted student from a relatively poor family, and the system I was educated in gave me many advantages because of that, and I received the college education that only two other members of my family had ever gotten.

I know it sounds very American, but, dammit, I am American, at core, and I can really see English tertiary education becoming much much better for everyone if changes are made in its funding patterns. No one likes to go from getting something for nothing to having to pay something for something. But the bankers and fat cats have eaten our free lunch, and we won’t get it back again until they’re all convicted of something-or-other and jailed good and hard, and that won’t happen until the coming of the Coqcigrues.

9 Responses to “A response to fj’s comment on my previous post”

  1. henare says:

    it happened in my lifetime … up until the year i graduated from high school CUNY and SUNY were free … and these aren’t slouchy places, either.

  2. rfmcdpei says:

    Hmm. Might I link to and comment at my own blog?

  3. chrishansenhome says:

    Indeed, I remember it well. And of course, there were Regents’ scholarships for New York State students.

    I believe that some institutions can be maintained at low cost to students. I just don’t believe that all tertiary educational institutions can be maintained at low/no cost to students.

  4. chrishansenhome says:

    Well, I certainly can’t stop you—every blogger is ultimately the master of his or her own blog.

  5. fj says:

    Changing it gradually to a student and alumnni/ae funded model, with government grants a distant third, is the only way to ensure that all those who want an education can get it.

    Charging people who have no money is the way to make sure they get the education they want?

    And I find the alumnae charging situation just insane. “Here at Tesco, people who bought cheese pay for other people’s cheese because they love our cheesemonger.” What you then get is the insane merry go round of having to please the alumni with a good football team and empty prestige.

    And it’s nice you managed to pay off your debt. I can name a friend who keep having to face living in their car with their children because she can’t, even while studying.

  6. chrishansenhome says:

    They may have no money now, but the education will be giving them the tools with which to make some. The terms that the government is proposing make it even more likely that they will be able to pay the loan off. Giving people for free the means to earn money and then letting them use all the money they earn (minus their taxes) doesn’t seem to me to be as fair as loaning people the means to earn money later on, out of which they will pay it back.

    Columbia has a crap football team. However, the value of the education I got there means that, even though I don’t make much money at the moment, I give to the alumni fund when I can. Other universities might keep a football team to please the alumni, but if that means that people who have no interest in football get their scholarships funded by sports-mad old boys then that’s a good thing.

    I also had friends who had difficulty in paying off their loans. I’m not saying that people should be beggared by educational loans. The US system is not particularly forgiving when it comes to student loans. However, the system proposed here is pretty good when it comes to payback time. People who are paying back loans which they cannot subsequently afford need to get in touch with the lender and arrange terms that they can live with. Most lenders will do this, even for credit card balances. If they won’t, you can’t get blood out of a stone and bankruptcy (although they’ve now changed the rules to make it difficult for a student loan to be included, I believe) might be the way to get out from under.

    In the current climate, while the fat cats are eating our lunch, there is a stark choice between getting students to pay more for their education or limiting the number of students who can get a tertiary education. Those who say that we should be hanging the capitalists and taking their money to fund the government have been smoking too much weed or drinking too much peach schnapps. Outside of a worldwide wholesale revamping of the capitalist system, there is no chance to squeeze enough money out of the banks and industries to fund everything that people want from government.

    I’m afraid we will have to agree to disagree. This one will run on and on, and in 5 or 10 years we will see what the results are. When Labour takes over from the Coalition in 2015 or 2020, I predict they will say, sorrowfully, that there is no money to restore free tertiary education. That’s what they did when they took over from poor John Major in 1997, after all.

  7. fj says:

    The terms that the government is proposing …

    …will be changed in the coming years as new governments amp up the rhetoric of school as an investment. That’s my main point here: do not find solace in the details. They will change.

    Once hopped over this fence of no government grants to education, it is near impossible to go back. “The terms are so good” is no shelter here, the terms will change. Oxbridge will be charging

  8. rfmcdpei says:

    True, but I’m not sure as to your privacy levels.

  9. chrishansenhome says:

    Well, I guess that really meant “Go ahead”.